Rossiyskaya Gazeta: Karin Kneissl tells about who destroyed her garden in Austria and why she chooses Russia, rather than Europe

Our meeting began like this: her assistants brought in some pots of violets they had just purchased. There are a lot of flowers in the office, but not enough, Ms Kneissl said in English. A slightly sad look, a politely courteous smile and royal precision: Ms Kneissl appeared just at the appointed time. Stately, in an Orenburg shawl and a jacket that looked like a show or competition jacket for horse riding. She invited me for tea, kindly offering ‘napkins’ and ‘nuts’ and admiring the softness of the sounds of Russian words. We talked not only about the global challenges, but also about love.

European ‘winter’

Ms Kneissl, the members of the Geopolitical Observatory on Key Russia’s Issues (‘GORKI’) at St Petersburg University, which is operating under your leadership, include foreigners. Are they not hampered by politics and the current situation in the world?

The observatory has only one foreigner. It’s me. Yet we are inviting international professors to our research discussions. There are two researchers from Germany and one researcher from Türkiye who have agreed to come. Others preferred to play it safe and avoid the risk. It is up to them to decide. Yet, international students, say, from India, Zimbabwe, South America, or Brazil are actively engaged in our events. To be honest, we did not discuss questions about Russia’s political position in the world with those who work with us. We mostly focus on three issues. These are energy, geopolitics (as well as related issues of political alliances), and migration, and therefore demographic problems.

Just recently, the Demographic Summit has been held in Hungary. Europe was predicted to experience a ‘demographic winter’. What do you think is behind this metaphor? Is this not an exaggeration?

I have been following this topic for about 20 years now. My opinion is this. If in political issues and economy everything can be changed very quickly, and Russia is a good example, the demographic situation cannot be changed quickly. Europe’s ‘demographic winter’ is nothing new. Yet the situation in different European countries is changing in its own way. The situation in Serbia is completely different than in France or Germany. There is no point in talking about some kind of general European ‘winter’. For example, let’s take Austria and recall some numbers. In 2011-2012, the number of Austrians born outside of Austria was about 12 % of its total population. In 2016, the figure was 20 %. Today, it is already 25 %, and in Vienna this number has reached 35 %. I have recently read a scientific study that said that 4 out of 10 residents in the capital are those who were not born in Austria. So, it is up to you to draw a conclusion.

Metternich’s predictions

The order established after World War II, the so-called Yalta-Potsdam system of international relations, is out of date. Today, even the Nuremberg judgement is being revisited. Take, for example, standing ovation given to a Nazi unit veteran in the Canadian parliament. You have extensive diplomatic experience. If you take a close look at the world, how is its configuration changing? What trends do you see?

I see what is happening today as follows. The world is falling apart into separate fragments. This is not the first time in history. There have already been periods when the planet was dominated by a huge market with a single currency and one language, but then suddenly everything changed. This was the case before World War I. The whole world spoke French, you could travel around the globe and feel comfortable knowing only this language. But even then, smart people warned that this was a great illusion, and the world would experience great disappointment... Sometimes we believe that trade and strong economic relations are a guarantee of reaching an agreement. In fact, they are not.

We are witnessing the challenging end of globalisation. It started 10 or 15 years ago and cannot avoid conflicts. We have to admit that how the world develops is not only about evolutionary processes. It is periodically shaken by revolutions that are associated with human tragedies. We see them, say, in Palestine. It is challenging to predict what new world order will emerge. In this regard, I would like to recall the Chancellor of the Austrian Empire during the Napoleonic Wars, Klemens von Metternich. Many revolutionary changes were taking place in Europe at that time. A new world order was being established, which was preceded by revolution, chaos, terror and war. Metternich is underestimated today, but I respect him for the phrase: ‘I have nothing against liberalism, but, unfortunately, nationalism follows after’. Look, I brought this portrait of Metternich by the famous artist from home. The Chancellor advocated a transnational state. We would now say that he advocated a multinational state.

But the European Union has already seen this and it was little success.

He was a supporter of European culture, which even then, in his opinion, was beginning to die. We can see the same now. Moreover, we see that the stronger liberalism is, the greater the danger of nationalism to emerge. Yes, the Chancellor was for a united Europe, but Europe was also different then. There were absolutely independent monarchies. The transnational state would look different.

Ms Kneissl, you called the era of the Cold War a ‘sweet time’ compared to today. Do you think diplomacy is effective today? Does it affect anything? Will we ever be able to restore the previous relationship between Europe and Russia?

A situation where the EU, Japan, and the United States do not allow any contacts, any cooperation with Russia even in such areas as academic, scientific, cultural, educational, is a ‘big scandal’. Yet, I can invite international professors here to Russia, while Russian scholars cannot travel to the West, they are ‘undesirable persons’ there. I know that Russia is a warm-hearted country, and Russians often forgive insults, they have a big heart, but before returning to normal relations, many things need to be clarified from a legal point of view.

Home for the elderly

Today, there has been a scandalous divorce between Europe and Russia. This is evidenced by the fact that Russian funds are frozen in Europe, and Europe is endorsing plans to give this money to the Ukraine. The scandal also affected me personally. I did not condemn the events that happened in Russia, and therefore I could no longer work in Europe. It all started in 2020. Yet, even then, I already felt which way the wind was blowing.

I hope that someday these relations will normalise and we will return to some kind of cooperation. The world is changing. It is no coincidence that Russia has now turned to the east. This is happening, among other things, for the demographic reasons that you have mentioned when you referred to what is happening in Europe as a ‘demographic winter’. It is clear that India will need more energy than Europe. From an economic point of view, contacts with African countries are also very promising.

I would call Europe a ‘home for the elderly’. Developing normal relations with this ‘home’ calls for big work in legislation.

The ‘decline of Europe’ was predicted a hundred years ago, and in the Soviet times they said that it was ‘decaying’.

We observed this ‘sunset’ several times. If we go deep into the past, I would remember the 30-year war and the plague epidemic, when half of Europe simply died out. The response to this chaos was the emergence of new absolutist states. Europe has been reborn after surviving a very serious crisis.

Today, the situation is different. We are losing the foundation on which European civilisation rested, namely legal states and respect for the rights of citizens. I must admit that I have always been very proud that the treaties between states, rather than conquests, lay foundation of how Europe has been evolving. Since the 18th century, people have come to agreement on many issues, by signing, for example, economic treaties or entering into dynastic marriages. Legal grounds absolutely dominated until the 1980s. Yet a decade and a half ago, they stopped observing these fundamental principles. The European Commission is a good example.

I am currently working on a book ‘Requiem for Europe’. It is about how we fail to follow the laws and are losing freedom. Now, having lived in several countries, I see much more freedom in Russia, Türkiye, and the Arab world.

When can we read your book?

I planned to finish it in the summer. Yet in August, very intensive work began at St Petersburg University. It took a lot of time to move and find an apartment. I need a free week and I will finish the book.

Your quote: ‘You can print money, but you cannot print energy’. In your opinion, is this the essence of the current global crisis? More than a year has passed since the explosions of the Nord Stream pipelines. Do you think that the energy system that was comfortable for the whole world is a thing of the past forever? What do you think awaits Russia and Europe?

Yes, Europe had a naive dream of abandoning oil and gas and focusing only on green energy. In 2014, Russia was going to build another branch of the gas pipeline, which was supposed to go to Bulgaria and further to Europe, but the European Commission banned construction. Today, we are witnessing that gas is being transited through the Ukraine. Yet, the Ukrainian gas transit contract ends in 2024.

What will happen next? What are the possible options? One of them is that this transit contract will continue beyond 2024. This situation has become possible after the ‘sabotage’ of the Nord Stream. After all, there are countries and regions of Europe that are 40 percent dependent on Russian gas exports. For example, Austria, partly Germany, and northern Italy. European actors who naively planned to change this situation acted completely irresponsibly, leaving the old mineral energy system but not developing any other systems.

Meanwhile, it is obvious that energy is what underpins the economy and the lifestyle to which Europeans are accustomed. As the English say, energy is the name of the game. In other words, without energy there will be no games, including political ones. This is the fact that we cannot get around. I have lived in Lebanon. On average, they have only two hours of government-provided electricity a day. Of course, you can live without electricity and without a refrigerator, and engage in agriculture. But can industrialised countries survive without energy? For Germany, this will be an enormous challenge.

Interview as interrogation

When I was preparing for our meeting, I watched some of your interviews, in particular, a very tough one on the Conflikt-zone channel. Yes, you can take a punch. Yet you were not allowed to express your point of view, they interrupted you. Today, there is a lot of talk about how classic journalism is giving way to news that can be generated by artificial intelligence, or substituted by biased and politicised opinions in the media. You have been involved in this profession. Do you think it is dying?

It is a key question. I am well aware of the situation that is currently prevailing in Europe, especially in the German-speaking segment. So-called respected well-known media, for example, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, the German TV channels ZDF and ARD, are losing the trust of readers and viewers. In Germany, alternative media are becoming very active, and something like a media underground is emerging. I can recall feedback I receive on my podcasts on the Internet, for example, about the problems of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. People need to be given not only facts, but also an explanation of why this is happening. In the German-language media, the party affiliation of the authors of a publication or a channel is increasingly evident. People do not believe that what they read in newspapers is true. Yet the trust of readers cannot be bought, even if you invest a lot of money in it.

As for Conflikt-zone, to be honest, when I was still the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Austria, I was used to this kind of communication with the media. It is more like a police interrogation. The BBC, to which I gave an interview in English, acts in the same way. They make you feel guilty and you must constantly defend yourself from the attacks. In the English-speaking space, journalists behave as if they were judges. I think that this kind of journalism has no future.

Yet there is another problem. It is media bribery. Even the chancellor’s entourage — these facts are well known in Austria — invested huge amounts of money in the media to positively reflect their policies. I have never acted this way.

What qualities should a journalist have today?

My idea is this. This is a brilliant education. A person must be financially independent. Otherwise, it is impossible to be a free journalist. And, of course, you must have a certain courage to deal with the topics that are relevant today. As a journalist, I could have written about Switzerland, but I have chosen Iran. I have worked as an analyst covering serious economic issues because I could afford to spend 2,000 to 3,000 dollars to do my work and get 200 to 300 dollars for the finished material. Financial independence is a problem in modern journalism.

I’m looking for a good piece of land

You started working and have settled in St Petersburg. Have you visited the local theatres and museums? Have you already felt the capricious nature of this city?

First of all, this is not my first time here. Thank God, in 2016 I visited St Petersburg as a tourist. I saw its architecture and visited the Hermitage. Now my whole life revolves around my office. This is the famous Kelch mansion in St Petersburg with its unique interiors from the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries.

The so-called House of Lawyer, where the office of the first mayor of St Petersburg Anatoly Sobchak was located.

The story of the first owners of the mansion is sad, but I can breathe very well here. I have never been to the theatre and I hope that as soon as I have free time, I will visit the Mariinsky Theatre. But for now, there is not enough time. As for the weather, it is quite to my liking. The main thing is that the people around are very friendly, nice, and supportive in every way.

You are currently renting an apartment. But what about your pets, i.e. ponies, dogs and horses? Are there any plans to buy a house in the suburbs and continue to run, as the newspapers reported in your Foreign Ministry days, ‘a small farm’? What, by the way, was meant by this?

I am definitely neither a farmer nor a peasant woman. In Austria, I cleaned the stables for my horses for 25 years. I grew some potatoes, tomatoes and lettuce. Yet Russians do it much better and in larger quantities than I did. Gardens in Russia cannot be compared to mine. Yes, I would really like to have a piece of land here somewhere near St Petersburg, but we cannot find a free large piece of land that I need to keep horses and ponies.

Again, the problem is time. When I lived in France (I had a decent piece of land there), I could drive to the nearest city in half an hour. In Austria, it took me an hour. But Russia is a huge country. It would be possible to settle in some Russian village. I can imagine this rural life with a stable and animals. In the mornings, I would leave the house and greet my chickens, walk with my dogs. And then by train, and trains are very comfortable here, I could commute to St Petersburg or Moscow to work. Stay in the city for a week and then go back to my village, even at a distance of 300 up to 400 kilometres. But for now, it is just a dream.

Love and friendship

Ms Kneissl, you once joked that you would finally decide where to live when you finish reading ‘War and Peace’. How well do you know Russian? Is it true that you are a real polyglot? Could you please share your experience on how to learn a language?

I can speak eight languages. Russian is the first Slavic language for me. If I started learning Portuguese, it would be easier for me, because I already know several Romance languages. Well, the Russian language is a challenge for me. I am learning it with a teacher. We started reading ‘War and Peace’, but then everything slowed down. The fact is that I learned French just by listening to it in France. The same thing happened with Spanish and Italian. But this will not work with the Russian language. I need to do homework and study a lot, but now I do not have time for that.

However, it is the language that I really miss here. I am not a polo player or a football player. For me, language is my job. And one more nuance. In France, I could speak French, or in Lebanon, I could speak Arabic and I could cope with any situation. For example, if something happened to a car on the road, a minor accident. But I do not speak Russian enough yet to figure this out on my own.

As for some formula that helps learn languages, I will be honest, I don’t know. I can’t boast a superpower and say that everything comes easy to me. When I learned Arabic, everything was similar to how a person learns to skate or play the piano. That is, training every day. This is the only way.

Your office is decorated with the photographs that you have brought from home. Could you please tell us more about them?

Here are some photos that date back to when I was Foreign Minister. With Mr Lavrov, with the President, and here I was photographed with the commander of the Russian troops in Syria. I am grateful to all these people for being able to come to Russia. Together with my pets, which are very dear to me because they helped me overcome challenging times. Basically, these are my friends and family now.

And it is, perhaps, the dearest and most beloved photograph for me. This is my garden. It is no longer there. When I had to leave, everything was destroyed. People came and destroyed absolutely everything that I had created over 25 years. This was not some kind of natural disaster, but human hatred.

It is very painful even to think about...

Yes, sure. After all, you can’t take the garden with you. But for me, of course, it was more important to take the ponies and dogs. To be able to take the animals with me, I was forced not to go straight from France to Russia, as I had planned, but to go to Lebanon first.

What are your dogs’ names?

They are a married couple. Churchill and Jackie. Both dogs are from a shelter. By the way, I help a Moscow organisation to protect boxers. It’s Boxer&Co. Volunteers take care of dogs that are lost or abandoned due to age. If you write about them, I will be very grateful. Boxers are a wonderful breed and are very good with children.

Ms Kneissl, I wish you a life in Russia filled with interesting work, an opportunity to travel, to live in nature, and, of course, to find new friends, and maybe new love.

I have met wonderful people here who will probably become my friends. However, you know that only in childhood we can easily make friends. Well, love... But I’m very glad that I ended up here. After all, it could well have happened that I would not be alive. Vot tak! (Karin Kneissl pronounces the last phrase in Russian — editor’s note).

Information from Rossiyskaya Gazeta

Karin Kneissl was born in Vienna, but spent part of her childhood in Amman (Jordan), where her father was the personal pilot of King Hussein. She studied law and Middle Eastern languages at the University of Vienna and continued her education at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and the University of Jordan.

In 1991-1992, she studied at the National School of Administration in France, defended her doctoral dissertation on the relationship between international law and the concept of borders in the Middle East. She worked as a journalist-expert on Middle East issues.

From 2017 to 2019, she was the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Austria.

Since 2023, she has been heading the research centre at St Petersburg University.